Q&A: I Peter 3

Introduction

Jason Harper: Thank you for listening to the brand Bible church, Q and A podcast. This time we’ll be in first, Peter chapter three. I’m Jason at the digital content manager here at the church.

Jed Gillis: And I’m Jed Gillis. I’m the teaching pastor here at Berean Bible church in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Jason Harper: We got a lot of questions this week covering a wide range of topics from how husbands and wives relate to each other. How we respond to suffering, some questions about the spiritual realm.

But it was really exciting to see several kids and preteens got involved ask some questions. In particular, the first three set of questions come mostly from kids. Asking about the definition of submission in marriage, leadership and marriage, and what exactly does a weaker vessel mean? It was really awesome to see that participation and we’re excited to have Jed answer those questions.

Summary of I Peter 1 & 2

Jason Harper: Before we start, Jed, where are we in first Peter?

Jed Gillis: Sure. The big picture is Peter starts addressing people who are God’s people who are loved as God’s children, but we aren’t living at our home in heaven with our Father yet.

So we’re living as strangers in this world, and he praises God for the salvation that God has given. He talks about the importance of having your mind and your hearts set fully on the grace that God has given. He talks about God’s saving grace through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. that’s revealed through his word, and he gets to chapter two and he says, this is what we were made for.

We were made to proclaim the glories of the one who called us from darkness into his marvelous light. And so as we do that, we are guarding our souls in tons of different situations. And finishing up chapter two, he talks about a few of those circumstances. He talks about masters and servants and government and going into chapter three, he’s continuing to give examples of how we guard our souls by looking to God’s glory and praising his glory in all of these different circumstances.

Prayer

Jason Harper: Before we start, let’s ask the Lord to bless this time. Dear God. Thank you for. First Peter. You’re teaching us to live in the world as sojourners live in the world as exiles and how we should operate in this world. As we go into chapter three and that gets into some of the nitty gritty details, I pray that you help us to have open minds and open hearts to what you have for us. And help us to listen to your word and grow from it. Amen.

Jed Gillis: Amen.

What does it mean to “submit”

Jason Harper: So the first question again, comes from a kid here are the church. Involves the first part where it says, likewise wives be subject to your own husbands. So that even if some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives. And then in verse five. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands.

What does it mean to submit doesn’t mean to be pushed around or not have any opinions?

Jed Gillis: No, it doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean to be pushed around.

Submission is more about an attitude than an action. The opposite of submission, isn’t thinking for yourself, the opposite of submission is rebellion is the kind of attitude that says, oh, you think we should go that way? No way. I’m not doing what you say. That’s the opposite of submission. So if I were going to define it, I’d say to submit means to be inclined to follow leadership.

You want to follow leadership. For example, if you think about athletics, you can think about a athlete submitting to a coach. Well, the athlete might have a different plan. The athlete might have a better plan, but when the coach says run this play and everybody else thinks you’re running that play, you need to not have the attitude that says, forget it, I’m going to mess it all up.

Or think of a basketball team. A point guard brings the ball down the floor. And that point guard knows the plan. That point guard knows the strengths of different people on the team. And the point guard may call a certain play, may dribble a certain direction. And if you say, I don’t want you to dribble that way, I’m going to stand in your way, well you mess up the whole play.

And so submitting to the point guard is to recognize as he moves this way, you say, well, what should I do in response? How do I help us towards the goal of scoring . So submitting is just to be inclined to follow that leadership.

I think there’s some interesting examples of submission. One that’s particularly interesting, this same word is used when Jesus was a child. It said that Jesus submitted to, or was submissive to his parents. It says in Luke chapter two. So it doesn’t mean they’re that Jesus didn’t know what to do, and so he obeyed what his parents said because he was sinful and needed to be corrected. Well, Jesus wasn’t sinful, so that’s not what submissive means. It can’t mean that the one who submits is of less value or less importance because there’s no one who is more valuable or more important than Jesus. So it’s just that Jesus comes along and says, well, I’m going to follow the leadership. I want to follow the leadership of my parents. And if his parents had told him to do something that was sinful, he wouldn’t have done it because Jesus doesn’t sin.

And so, we’re all called to submit in different areas because it’s not good for our souls to be rebellious. And so when we talk about what does it mean to submit? It really is talking about the attitude that when someone tries to lead, you don’t shake your hand in their face and go, I’m not following what you say. Your desire is to follow that leadership as much as you can while following God.

When submitting, do you have to agree on everything?

Jason Harper: So if submissions an inclination to follow leadership, And whether that’s in a marriage relationship or you’re working. Does that mean you can’t share your thoughts or you have to agree on everything?

Jed Gillis: No, not at all. In fact, good leadership wants your thoughts and perspective. But submission means you are going to handle disagreements with the desire to follow leadership, not handle disagreements with the desire to undermine it or cause problems. Again, I’ll use the sports illustration.

If the point guard moves the ball to one side of the floor and their strongest defenders over there, and you realize that, and you know, this isn’t a good plan. Well, you don’t go guard your own point guard and try to take the ball from him. You try to make it work and you submit, you want to follow that, but the next time out, you might be having a different conversation about what you see on the floor.

And a good leader is going to recognize, okay, that’s right. I don’t want to dribble into that guy. I’m going to go the other direction. So you certainly share thoughts. It’s the attitude that says I want to follow leadership, rather than saying, well, I’m going to agree on everything. I saw a quote the other day, it said. Some people will sink the whole ship because they can’t be the captain. That’s the opposite of submission.

That’s rebellion. So to say, I’m going to do the best I can to make our ships sail best. But if the captain says we need to run into this reef, I’m going to raise some objections, but I’m still not going to say I’m going to sink the ship just to spite their leadership. I want to follow that leadership want to work as team.

What is good leadership?

Jason Harper: So if submission is an attitude of wanting to follow leadership, then. Then what is good leadership?

Jed Gillis: That’s a great question, because you really can’t have one piece without the other.

And I think the simplest way to understand leadership. Is there’s three pieces I would look at first there’s wise initiative. And initiative, maybe not a word we use all the time, but it’s pretty easy to spot. It’s the person who says, well, let’s do this. Let’s do this. Kids you’re playing at school at recess, you’re playing at a park. You know, there’s some kids who will suggest, Hey, let’s do this.

That’s an act of leadership. Just suggesting let’s do this is his initiative. And when it’s wise initiative, then they’re not telling you, Hey, let’s go jump off the top of that building. That’s initiative, it’s just not wise, because the goal’s not very good, and you’re going to get hurt. So wise initiative says here’s a good thing for us to do, so let’s do it.

And it’s the person who says let’s do it. That’s one aspect of leadership. So you’ve got to know good goals. What you should do. Part of being wise is knowing your team.

Sports illustrations are easy for me to think of leadership. And if you think of a basketball team that’s terrible at shooting three pointers, you can try to lead by saying, let’s shoot a lot of three pointers, but that’s probably not very smart because if you know your team, wise initiative says let’s do this because it fits the strength of our team.

One aspect of leadership is wisely knowing good goal saying, let’s do this one aspect is influence, because if the kid on the playground says, let’s go play freeze tag and nobody does it, then the leadership’s not working.

So it’s initiative, let’s do this, and when you do that, do people follow? Is there influence, can you influence people? And then the last thing, and this is the way Jesus redefines leadership, is service, it’s being a servant.

So good leadership is being the number one servant, the first person to serve. Let’s do this and I’m going to serve others to help it happen. In Mark chapter 10:42 and following paraphrased, Jesus says, those who are regarded as rulers, or those who are thought of as leaders in the world around you, they exercise authority. They boss people around, and they Lord it over others. They think they’re more valuable than other people. But instead Jesus says this:

If you want to be great, or he says in a different place, if you want to be first. We could paraphrase for what we’re saying: if you want to be a good leader, be a servant. Serve other people.

So those three pieces is how I think of leadership. It’s wise initiative. Here’s a good goal. Let’s do it.

It’s influence. So you influence others a lot of different ways. Sometimes that’s by making a decision. Sometimes that’s by just having a conversation. Sometimes that’s by encouraging someone to do what’s good. Sometimes it’s by warning them against the danger.

And you serve others. And that combination. I think that’s what good leadership is.

So back to submission. Submission is the attitude that says as this person in this role shows initiative, let’s do this, tries to influence me towards a good goal, and as they’re serving the team, I want to not be rebellious against that leadership. I want to be eager to follow it and help the team accomplish the goal.

Does being a leader make you more important?

Jason Harper: So if the leader is the one setting the goal, or has the most influence, does that make him or her more important. In a sports team, is the point guard more valuable than all the other players?

Jed Gillis: It’s interesting, I was thinking about this and thinking about the difference in some sports. Basketball. I looked this up. I don’t know this off the top of my head. But in basketball in the last 25 years, You could take all of the people who were voted as the most valuable players, only four of those in the last 25 years, only four years, did they vote a point guard as the most valuable player.

And yet the point guard leads the play down the field takes initiative to say, where do I want the ball to move? Which play do we run? Who am I throwing the ball to? There’s a lot of leadership, initiative, influence, and very much service going on. You go, I’m going to pass the ball to that guy where he has the best chance to score.

It’s different from football, where a quarterback is almost always the most valuable player. And that’s because he not only leads, he’s also acting on every play. He’s the one throw in the pass. He’s the one doing everything in a way that the point guard doesn’t.

So. Even in the sports illustration. To talk about a point guard as a leader. They’re not more valuable, but they accomplish a certain role. They’re not more important. You can’t play the game with only one point guard. And if you have a team full of point guards, you got five point guards on a basketball court, you’re probably not going to win many games.

So it’s not more important or more valuable. It’s just a different role that is played, and all of that helps the team.

Do leaders just tell everyone what to do?

Jason Harper: So if someone is trying to be a good leader, And have good influence, set goals. How do they do that, do you just go around telling everyone what to do?

Jed Gillis: No. It’s not, you don’t tell others what to do. There are times of course, where part of initiative is right now, we need to make a decision. So let’s try to make this decision. Let’s do this.

There are times when that happens, of course, but when you take initiative sometimes you talk to somebody else who’s really good in a certain area, and you listen to what they say and say, well, let’s do what you’re suggesting. It doesn’t have to be your idea. It’s just the initiative to say, well, let’s do it. Let’s go and move forward. That’s the leadership.

And if you think about even kids, if you’re listening, if you think about the people who have the most influence on you, they probably aren’t the people who are bossy. They’re the people you honor, and you think, man, they really care about me. They know what I’m good at. They know what I struggle with. Those are the people who influence you the most, not the people who just boss you around.

And the same thing with being a servant. Serving others isn’t about telling them what to do. It’s about knowing their strengths, knowing good goals, and then you help them be in a good place to succeed. That’s what service is about.

It’s interesting, I read a quote by Steve jobs who was the head of Apple. And he said it doesn’t make sense when leaders hire smart people and tell them what to do. If you’re hiring smart people, you go, well, if I can tell them what to do and tell them the best way to do it, why did I hire them in the first place?

So instead he says, you hire smart people so they can tell the leaders the best way to go about things. And this same thing is true. In my life, my wife is a nurse by training. Well, when there’s a medical emergency and a kid is injured. I look to her knowledge and say, what’s the best thing to do here.

I don’t boss her around and say, here’s what we ought to do. But then if she says, well, I think we need to go to the emergency room. The leadership in that point is to say, let’s do it. Let’s go. I don’t have to know everything. I don’t have to be smarter or better at anything else. It’s just taking the initiative to say, let’s do it.

So it’s not telling others what to do. Many times it’s listening to them in an area they know better than you do. And you hear what they say, and then you take that into account and say, all right, we’re going to run this play as a point guard. We’re going to try for this shot and score. We’re going to do this as a family. It’s that kind of initiative, not just bossing people around.

How does treating your wife poorly hinder your prayers?

Jason Harper: As a husband. Trying to develop leadership skills. There’s a warning in verse seven. Likewise husbands live with your wives in an understanding way showing honor to the woman as a weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

I don’t want my prayers to be hindered. What exactly is showing honor to your wife and how does not doing that hinder my prayers.

Jed Gillis: Sure. I think that in the context there, showing honor has to do with relating in an understanding way, relating with tender care, and then valuing her. So that’s the picture of what does showing on or mean. Question is if you don’t, how does that hinder your prayers?

And I think there, notice it says your prayers would be hindered. It doesn’t say directly that the answers to your prayers would be hindered.

So the picture isn’t that you come to God with this wonderful heart of humility and worship and love, and you pour out your soul and prayer, and God goes and looks at your marriage report card and says, ah, you got like a D minus right now, I can’t answer your prayer.

That’s not the picture. I think the idea here is that if you don’t care for your wife in these ways, if you don’t have loving servant leadership with understanding and care and honor, then there’s going to be issues in your soul that hinder you from praying in a good way.

So for example, If you approach leadership like, I know what’s best. I’m more valuable than the people I’m leading. And, as I approached them, I just boss them around. Well, that’s pretty proud. And an attitude of pride tends to make me not come before God in prayer. So hinders prayer, or you might think because, God does say that marriage is a picture of Christ and his church.

So you might think that as you relate to your wife, you say, well, I don’t treat her in an understanding, tender, caring, honoring way. Because it is a picture there, without even thinking about it, you might start to say so God probably doesn’t relate to me in an understanding, tender, caring, honoring way. And if I don’t think that God relates to me in those ways, I’m much less likely to go pray.

So by relating in a good way and picturing God in an imperfect way, but relating the way that he relates to his church, you help yourself and you help your soul. So that you’re more likely to come to God in prayer with the right attitude, the kind that God loves to answer.

What does “the weaker vessel” mean?

Jason Harper: In that verse, Peter refers to the woman as the weaker vessel. And sometimes especially in this day and age, we kind of bristle at that. When he says women are the weaker vessel, what does he mean? Is he talking about physical strength, emotional sensitivity, something else?

Jed Gillis: Sure.

I think in this text right before this he’s described women as fearless, full of godly hope, strong enough to do what’s right, even when they’re suffering, having deep peace in their soul, and having incredible character that is better than any external beauty. In the six verses, right before this that’s ways he described women.

Clearly, he’s not saying women are weak spiritually, or even emotionally. So I think he’s merely talking about a physical reality and that’s that the average woman is physically weaker than the average man. That has nothing to do with value that doesn’t make you more valuable, less valuable, it just is a physical difference.

And so if that’s the only thing that he means when he says weaker, which I think it is, then you say, How do we show honor to the weaker vessel? How do we show honor to a woman, if we’re recognizing that she is weaker in some ways than men are on average. It’s kind of like, I don’t use my computer as a hammer. That’s not because the hammer is more valuable. It’s just because in fact, the computer is far more valuable. And the computer is weaker. If I hit nails with my computer, it will break. That doesn’t make it worth less. It just is a function. It’s a role. It’s only weaker in one way.

So I show honor to my computer by not beating nails with it. I show honor to my computer by not keeping it in my toolbox where I dropped screwdrivers and things on it. There’s ways I show honor to it because it’s physically weaker. And actually, because it is more valuable in certain ways.

And so I think that whole picture is about showing honor. And God has given certain roles. So if it comes down to, we need to move something heavy. Generally speaking, men are going to jump in and move something heavy, and they ought to, because men are generally stronger.

You shouldn’t ask a woman to strain to pick up something that physically she struggles with, when you go, this guy can pick it up easier and there’s other things. And we can talk about the other side, where there are other things that women are generally better at than men, and they should use those gifts and roles. It’s about role and function, not about value.

Are men better than women or women better than men?

Jason Harper: We’ve kind of hit this through the lens of the marriage relationship. This does point out, there are differences between men and women. Does that mean men are better than women, or women better than men? Do these roles affect our value in God’s eyes in any way?

Jed Gillis: No, I don’t think so at all. I don’t think they’re better. I think. Men generally may be better in certain areas and women may be better in certain areas. We’re not equal in the sense that we all have the same gifts and abilities. But it doesn’t mean different value, not any more than playing different positions on a basketball team means different value.

You need all of it. It’s kind of like saying, which is more important, the right wing of an airplane or the left wing of an airplane. Without either one, you don’t fly.

And so it’s not that they’re less valuable. It’s just that they’re different.

Jason Harper: And just to make it absolutely clear. Are both men and women created in God’s image and loved equally?

Jed Gillis: Absolutely.

And that’s from Genesis one, he says that man humanity was made in God’s image, but he very specifically says male and female, he created them in God’s image. And so to display God’s worth in a way that is worthy of who God is, God made, not just one gender, but he made both male and female and both are said in Genesis one to be created in God’s image, so both have value and God loves both men and women.

What’s just cultural and what’s true for us today?

Jason Harper: Sometimes when the Bible talks about gender roles and that sort of thing. I’ve heard it stated that it’s based on the cultural context. That Peter, in this case, was speaking out of his cultural context of living in ancient Rome. Is that true? And how well do we distinguish what’s cultural and what’s true for us today in the Bible?

Jed Gillis: Well, there could be, some of the way it could look in our lives might be cultural. For example, in this text, it says that Sarah called Abraham Lord.

I think when you read the context, it’s saying that she showed respect to him in normal, culturally appropriate ways. It doesn’t mean that women in modern America who don’t address their husbands as Lord are sinning.

So that’s a cultural specific, but the principle is there, which is to show respect and whatever is a culturally appropriate way to show respect to your husband. And so I think that’s one specific example from here. We can do the same thing in general. Principles are the same, and are often rooted, not in culture of Peter’s day, but in creation and the way God made things to start with. So those principles still apply. There is still leadership. That’s still part of the way God made us men and women, but what does that look like in a modern culture? That’s a very different question. And I think that’s where we have to separate: what’s the principle that’s actually here, the timeless principle that applies across cultures that doesn’t change just because the culture changed.

And also we have to be careful. Sometimes people take it a step further than the way you said it. And will say because of his culture, Peter was wrong. So we have to correct it.

Well, at that point, we’re letting our modern culture correct the Bible and correct the holy Spirit’s inspiration so that doesn’t work.

But we can say culturally, for example, even the end of some of the epistles, I think maybe Peter, it says to greet one another with a holy kiss. Does that mean that we should all be kissing one another as we arrive at church, that would be awfully weird for our culture. There’s a principal there, be welcoming to one another.

The cultural way that was demonstrated is through A kiss and still is if you go to Argentina, if you go to some other countries in the world, where they still have versions of greeting that involved kisses. So it’s one cultural way to express it. But in order to obey the principle of the passage, it’s not kiss, it’s greet one another warmly. Be welcoming. And so that separates the principle from what it looks like in the culture.

Is God a man?

Jason Harper: Earlier you brought up Genesis and how male and female is created in God’s image, but the Bible continually refers to God as a he, so is God a man. Or how does the Bible describe God?

Jed Gillis: Sure. It’s a great question. And no, not in the sense we think of. God doesn’t have gender. Like we think of he’s described as a father and son he’s often described in male terms, but that’s not because he has a body and has a physical gender. God is a spirit. He doesn’t have a body.

But it does mean that there’s some aspects of what we understand about male roles that are applicable to God’s specifically. And so it’s not that he is a man, but it does describe him in male terms. That’s because we can’t fully grasp. God. And we have a hard time wrapping our mind around it, but I do want to talk about a couple passages. Where it doesn’t use only male terms. It will use a female metaphors for who God is.

For example, Isaiah 66 says, God comforts his people like a mother comforts her child. So if you changed that and said, God comforts his people like a father comforts his child, it wouldn’t communicate the same thing. So scripturally there, it’s saying there’s something beautiful and good about the way a mother comforts her child, that is different from the way a father comforts his child, and it’s appropriate and good to say God comforts like a mother does.

And. Isaiah 49 says like a woman would never forget her nursing baby. God will not forget his children.

So the picture here, you have a woman who’s nursing. She’s not going to forget that she’s nursing. She doesn’t forget that her baby exists. And just like that, God is not going to forget his children.

Deuteronomy 32 describes God like a mother Eagle hovering over her young. The way the mother Eagle handles that is appropriate for describing God.

Even, I hadn’t really thought about this until I was looking at this question, but even Luke 15, there’s the housekeeper looking for a lost coin. We often think of the good shepherd looking for the hundred sheep. The housekeeper picture is a woman there. And that’s picturing God. Like he is pictured in female characteristics in some cases. God cares for his people like a midwife cares for the child she just delivered. That’s Psalm 22 as a reference.

Psalm 71, Isaiah 66. There’s an aspect of God’s care and comfort and nourishing. Hosea 13 described God experiencing the anger of a mother bear robbed of her cubs.

Again, these are pictures that you could describe them in male terms, but God didn’t. Under inspiration he described it so that he was like to a mother bear. Or Jesus says like a mother hen longs to gather her chicks under her wings, Jesus longed for the people of Jerusalem.

So over and over, you have these different pictures, even one more. In Genesis, it describes Eve as a help meet or a suitable helper for Adam, that same term of helper there is used of God helping his people. So as we go through scripture, sometimes it can jump out at us because there are a lot that referenced the father or the son and there’s male sounding terms. But there’s also all of these aspects, because you need both male and female, created in the image of God, to demonstrate the beauty and the glory of who God is.

Why does God include challenging passages?

Jason Harper: This whole section presents some challenges, in gender roles, and how marriage works. Why does God include challenging passages like this in the Bible?

Jed Gillis: I think there’s a couple big reasons. One is worship. God is communicating thruths that are just, they’re bigger than us. And as we, if everything seemed like two plus two equals four, We wouldn’t have a whole lot of motive for worship. But when we go and we see something just astoundingly, beautiful, it may be hard.

It may be hard to comprehend. Kind of like when we look at the stars and you start to try and fit into your head, how big the stars actually are and how big space is. It stretches your mind. It’s difficult. And it draws you to something like worship and that same way. I think there’s some challenging passages because he’s communicating huge truths, so it drives us to worship.

I think he included it. Passages like this, because it gives us a sense of need for God. We go and we pray and say, I don’t understand all of this. And challenging passages help us to realize I need God’s help. It creates a motive for thinking, and this is not separate from prayer.

Second Timothy two, Paul says, think on what I say, think on these things and the Lord will give you understanding in these things. One of the things that is fulfilling and good for us is when we think carefully about something and you wrestle with it and you go, oh, I think there’s an answer. I see something.

I don’t get all of it yet, but I see a piece, like that’s a good thing for humans. These kinds of passages. We have truth from God that drives us to think. In prayer and that combination as we depend on him, and we think with the strength that he gives, drives us to worship him. And it also gives us a, a need for education.

Not only do we need God, we need other people which could look like formal education. It could look like talking to somebody else and saying, Hey, I didn’t understand this passage. What do you think it means? And all of those things if all of scripture just read, like, okay. Two plus two equals four.

Okay. I got it. Moving on. We wouldn’t have an impulse from scripture driving us to worship and need and community and thinking.

And humility as well, because the fact that there are challenging passages, remind me that I don’t have all the answers and I struggle. And it reminds me that I need God’s truth.

I don’t need to hold my truth and my opinion as if that were the ultimate answer.

Jason Harper: When we come across passages like this that are challenging or just in general with coming across something that challenges our preconceived notions of how the world works. How should we approach these? What are some practical ways that we can shape our mind to approach passages like this? And who can we ask for help?

Jed Gillis: Yeah, that’s great.

I think practically your first step has to be you go and ask God, because any other step without God’s help is going to be pointless. So we go and ask God first. I’m looking at this text. I need to see what you want to tell me in this text. God worked by your spirit. Remove any distractions. In my mind helped me to assume the right things as I look at the text.

So you ask God first, the second thing I would say, don’t skip this step. Dig into the text yourself. I love to print out the text of scripture, and to just make all kinds of notes around it to make lines. I underline. I draw questions. Sometimes it looks neat. Most of the time, it doesn’t look neat. But it’s just about digging into what does this text actually say?

And as you wrestle through that, that solves some of the challenges. Probably not all of them. So at that point, It’s good to hold your conclusions loosely. And you don’t sit here and think I’ve got all the answers. Somebody else may have a better answer. So I’m always interested, well, what else does somebody say about this text? So you ask God, you dig into the text, you hold your conclusions loosely.

Then you. To say, who can we ask for help? The next step is the people around you who love God and love his word. And I think in our modern world, sometimes we skip that step and you want to run to YouTube, which probably isn’t the best plan. If you don’t know for sure that you can trust the person you’re going to on YouTube. There’s a lot of nonsense out there. Of course. TikTok’s worse by the way.

But when you go and say, I’ve walked with these people, I trust their character. I know they love God. All right. Go ask them. What do you see? It doesn’t mean that they’re right. They’re not God, but there are another set of eyes. Another perspective.

With all that, ask God, dig into the text, hold your conclusions loosely. Talk to people around you who love God and love his word. Then you go, what are some other outside resources? And there’s their sources of church history. We’re not the first people who have wrestled with the vast majority of these questions. So you go and ask.

Okay. How else did people wrestle through scripture? They’re not Bible, but there are another set of people. With a different set of cultural assumptions coming to the same text. How did they wrestle through it? And then you can find, of course, could be the YouTube options, other online resources, where you can go find people who have wrestled through that.

And if you don’t know who do I look to? Who should I go check out on this topic? There’s a lot of people around you back to step number four, who have done some of that wrestling. You can come ask pastors here at Berean. We’re glad to give you some resources. If we know them, if not, we’ll try to find some.

And we approach all of these with the idea that. I am not the final answer. I have to have God. God’s put me with other people and God’s put people throughout history and across the globe. With all of that we wrestle. And the goal is from Romans 14, to be fully convinced in your own mind. To say, I think this is what this text says, and here’s how I live for the glory of God, based on my understanding. Be fully convinced in your own mind, but you’re not God, which means you can’t sit in judgment over the brother who has a different viewpoint on this text. Especially on things that are challenging to understand and controversial.

So you say, all right, I’m convinced. I think this is the best way to live. I’ll talk with my brother who disagrees. I may try to convince him, but I’m not his God. He stands before God as his master, or he falls before God as his master. He never stands or falls before me as his master, which helps us keep both confidence conviction, but also humility as we interact with others.

What does “baptism now saves you” mean?

Jason Harper: As Peter transitions out of this kind of practical. Part, he just talked through chapter two about how we relate to government, how we relate to bosses. And now how husbands and wives relate to each other. He starts talking about suffering for righteousness sake. And that moves into the last paragraph, which seems like it’s another challenging part.

We’ve got a lot of questions that last paragraph. So I’ll go ahead and read the whole thing.

Verse 18. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God. Being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah while the Ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through water. Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you. Not as a removal of dirt from the body doesn’t appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I guess we can maybe work our way backwards through there. Just that last sentence about baptism. What does he mean when he says, baptism now saves you?

Jed Gillis: There’s a lot of ink spilled over this phrase. A lot of questions about what that means and really whole denominations that one of the dividing lines is around this text and what it means. I think that the place to start is that we have to guard the reality. Of other tech sections of scripture that God saves us by grace alone, through faith alone. I’m going to back that up one more time. That’s the way we often say it, but I’m going to be a little more precise and say, God justifies us by grace alone. Through faith alone.

The book of Galatians points out. If you add anything. Including circumcision to faith. If you add anything to faith. You are actually cut off from grace. Galatians two says we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law, no one will be justified. And later in Galatians five, Paul makes the point more clear. Talking about circumcision, not talking about keeping all the 10 commandments.

He says every man who accepts circumcision. If you take that as necessary, then you would be obligated to keep the whole law. It says you are severed from Christ. You who would be justified by the law. If you accept, I’ve got to add in his case, what he was talking specifically to, I’ve got to add the act of circumcision to faith in order to have justification. If you would be justified by the law, you’re actually cut off from Christ. You’re no longer really trusting in Christ. If you add anything to trust in Christ alone, as creating the reality of salvation. Justifying you, giving you Christ’s righteousness.

So based on that and numerous other texts that you could point to in Romans and other passages. You don’t view baptism as justifying believers. It does not create the reality of salvation.

So you have two main options to guard that truth. One scripture refers to something called spirit baptism, which isn’t what we think of it when you just hear the word baptism necessarily as taking someone and immersing them in water. Instead it’s being immersed in the spirit, which happens at the moment of justification. When you have faith and God unites you to Christ. Then you are baptized in the spirit. At that point, you are fully immersed in God’s holy spirit and you are justified. God is a hundred percent for you.

So it’s possible that what Peter has in mind. One explanation to guard the truth that we talked about is that Peter is thinking about the baptism of the spirit, which actually does create the spiritual reality of salvation or justification specifically.

That’s a true idea. So that’s what Peter is thinking of. Here is a separate question.

I tend to think that’s not what he’s referring to here, because in this text he directly talks about water repeatedly. And while he says. He talks about being made alive in the spirit, proclaiming to the spirits in prison. So the word spirit is used, but it’s certainly not clearly related to the holy spirit here.

So it is possible. Peter knows the reality of spirit baptism, and it’s possible that’s what he’s referring to here. I prefer the second option for this text, which is to say that the word saves here doesn’t mean justifies you. It doesn’t mean that it brings about this saving reality. Peter uses the word saves in fact, to speak of the whole process of bringing us safely to heaven. Not just justification, not just the creation of righteousness is given to us, not the creation of a saved soul, but the whole process. And his picture is of Noah.

So let’s think about it this way. In one sense, it would be weird to say the arc saved Noah. Actually God saved Noah. In fact, Noah was saved in one sense, the reality of his relationship with God already existed earlier in Genesis, when it says Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Well, at that point before the arc was even built, he was saved by his relationship to God. In the parallel. He was justified.

But in one sense, you could say the whole process of his salvation did happen through the arc. It was part of the process. And so part of the way God delivered Noah from being amidst a wicked crooked generation to coming out through the flood on the other side, was the Ark. And baptism is it doesn’t create a spiritual reality, but it is an appeal to God for a good conscience. We could connect back with the previous section where it talks about a good conscience earlier. You’re living out your hope that’s placed in Christ by saying, symbolically visually all of my hope to go through God’s judgment is found in me being united to Jesus. And I’ll make it through all the waters of judgment because of that.

So in a sense to say it is part of the way God delivers you through his judgment is through this symbol and obedience of baptism. Yes, but it doesn’t create a spiritual reality. It doesn’t create justification. That happens by faith and by grace alone.

Jason Harper: Yeah, the last part of that verse says baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So if I’m reading that correctly, I hear. It’s not really about the physical act. Though that is an important to do. But it’s more about the heart attitude of the person being baptized, that they are doing this as an appeal to God.

Jed Gillis: Yeah, absolutely. And back in verse 16, it talks about having a good conscience. In that context, what it is that gives you a good conscience, is your hope is placed in Jesus and you are practically living it out in a way that can be seen and people can ask questions. So then they come and they slander you, but then they see, they claim their hopes in Jesus and they’re actually living it out. So a good conscience here. It seems to focus on living out the reality of hope.

So when you appeal to God for a good conscience or that word could be translated pledge to God for a good conscience. It would be to say, my hope is only in Jesus. I’m living this out by demonstrating it symbolically in front of others in baptism. That’s an appeal to God for a good conscious. It definitely pushes against the idea that the mere fact that you got wet makes you justified, because it says it’s not the washing of dirt from the body. But he doesn’t go on to say anything else like it’s, but it’s actually the washing of sin for the soul. He doesn’t say that. He says it’s not the washing of dirt. It’s actually about living out this hope in Christ ultimately.

So both of these options to say this refers to spirit baptism. Spirit baptism truly does justify. That’s accurate and it’s a true theological idea. It could be the reality that’s here. But there’s another option, which also guards the idea of what faith and grace actually do, which can fit with what Peter says. So in some cases like this, we say there’s two ways that you could interpret it. You wrestle with what’s the best way to track the logical flow of this passage. What did Peter mean when he wrote it? And again, you say there’s some conclusions I can hold confidently. For example, justification comes by faith and by grace. That’s it. There’s other conclusions. What exactly does this meaning of baptism refer to in this verse? That may be harder to nail down to a specific thing you wrestle with it. Come to the conclusion you think is the best one. And you hold it loosely enough that as you see other things in scripture, you may find that you change your mind.

What did Christ’s death and resurrection accomplish?

Jason Harper: So our salvation is based. And they’re the last phrase of that verse through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now verse 18 talks about Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God.

We’ve kind of danced around this, but the Jesus pay the full penalty for our sins. And what did his death and resurrection? Actually accomplish. And how did it accomplish that?

Jed Gillis: We could talk for weeks on that actually just got a book. That’s all about the work of Christ and it talks about all that Jesus’ death and resurrection accomplished, and probably doesn’t include everything there.

But the big picture that I think applies here is there were at least two things that Jesus paid. There was a punishment that our sins deserved. The wages of sin is death. Romans. Six says there was a punishment that our sins deserved. Jesus paid that punishment. He died where death was needed.

But I don’t think that is the right way to view the language of debt. We don’t usually say that if someone is convicted of a crime, We don’t usually think, well we sometimes will say I paid my debt to society, so we kind of get there, but I don’t think that’s the most normal way to talk about debt. I think the other side, and this, as far as I know, one of the earliest guys who’ve mentioned this was Anselm. I talked about the honor debt that was owed.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they had failed to honor the God of the universe who deserved all of their honor, all of their worship. Romans one hints at this where it says when they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks. The root of the issue was an honor one.

And so one debt that we owed was a debt of honor. We, as God’s creation, we owe him the debt of honoring him as he deserves. When Jesus died, as the second person of the Trinity coming and saying, the honor, the reputation of the triune God is worth me coming, suffering, and dying. He was demonstrating just how valuable, just how much honor was actually deserved. And he was giving that honor in a way that we couldn’t, because if we showed God the honor he deserved, it’d be like, if Adam did, after he sinned, he would have to die. And then he’d be dead. And he would have deserved to die. So he wouldn’t come back.

But Jesus displays perfect honor. When he says in the garden, not my will, but yours be done. I’m going to honor you, what your will is, that’s what needs to accomplish. He perfectly paid the debt. In his death, he did that. And so Philippians two says because he was obedient unto death, wherefore God has highly exalted him. God’s raised him up and given him authority and honor that he deserves.

So resurrection points out that he accomplished it. He paid all of the penalty that was needed. And he showed all of the honor that was needed. And so therefore death couldn’t keep him because he didn’t deserve to stay dead. So he was raised. That’s what he accomplished. He perfectly paid the debt of punishment, if we want to call that a debt, but he perfectly paid the debt of honor that was owed as well.

So that accomplishes then, God’s people, if we’re united to him by faith, God looks at that as Jesus has paid the debt of honor that was deserved. And Jesus has paid the punishment, paid the penalty, that needed to be paid so that, yes, the quick answer to the question, did Jesus pay the full penalty for our sins? Absolutely. And praise God that he did.

Why was Christ in the grave for three days?

Jason Harper: In a discussion about this, the observation was made that he was in the grave for three days. Does that number three, have some sort of special meaning? Could it have been shorter or longer? Or what’s the significance of that?

Jed Gillis: I don’t know that there’s a real significance to it. There’s some ancient historical evidence that there were times that people would seem to be dead and then would not really be dead. And they go into a coma, their heart rate drops and without modern medical procedures and equipment, they didn’t know that they were dead. So it was understood in ancient times, if someone was dead for three days, they were really dead. That was the timeframe that they used. It’s possible that it was three days in a way to respond to historical understanding to say Jesus actually was dead. It could be that it could be that there’s other meanings.

There’s certainly symbolism. And you could talk about Jonah being in the whale for three days. You could talk about different uses of three in scripture, and maybe there’s some connections there. But I think the main thing is he was dead. He was really dead. And then he really came to life.

Who are the “spirits in prison?”

Jason Harper: It talks about Christ being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Who are the spirits in prison?

Jed Gillis: Yeah. I’ll give three main options, which are what people have most often taught. And I’ll just say upfront, I lean towards one of them, but it’s hard to really say, what did Peter mean in this context? There are arguments for each one. There’s arguments against each one.

So option one would be Jesus proclaimed, the good news of the gospel to old Testament believers who had waited in. In Hades in this kind of intermediate state between life. They were dead, so they weren’t alive, but they weren’t really in God’s presence yet. And then Jesus led them to God. That’s one option. You could say he’s proclaiming good news to old Testament believers, and then he leads them all the way to God’s presence.

Option two would be instead of seeing spirits in prison as believers who had died, but hadn’t gone to God’s presence yet, option two would be to say Jesus proclaimed, not the good news, but he proclaimed his victory over demonic spirits in the underworld. In, in both cases in option one and option two, people have taught that happened while Jesus was dead before he was raised. That’s possible.

The main challenge I have for both of those interpretations is that it says that Jesus proclaim to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah. While the Ark was being prepared. So it seems to connect this somehow with the days of Noah in a way that neither one of those totally makes sense for me.

And the third option, and this is a, it’s an ancient option. I know at least Augustan taught this possibly before that. The third option is that Jesus spoke through the prophets and he proclaimed the hope of deliverance to people in Noah’s day through Noah’s preaching. Which is a little bit strange, but probably not as strange if we look back at chapter one and verse 10, where it says that the prophets who prophesied about the grace, that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully. So the prophets were doing this, verse 11. Inquiring what person or time the spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he, the spirit of Christ, predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

He’s already set up the possibility that you could refer to the prophets in the old Testament as the spirit of Christ predicting sufferings and proclaiming subsequent glories. If that’s a possibility, which it certainly seems to be from chapter one then when he says in chapter three, When he says Jesus was made alive in the spirit, so in the spirit and spirit of Christ here, In which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they, so then you’d be understanding spirits in prison to refer to people who were imprisoned because they do not have spiritual life. They were imprisoned and they were people who would be judged. And they were actually the people alive in Noah’s day. Jesus preached through Noah to them proclaiming hope.

That hope there was, you’re going to face judgment. The arc is the only way we’re going to be saved. And that leads into the same thinking of you are going to face judgment if you’re not found in Jesus. And ultimately it’s being connected to him that saves you. I lean towards that one. I primarily lean towards it because of the comment about Noah’s day, and I find it hard to connect the spirit of Christ preaching to any of the other options with specifically happening in Noah’s day.

However. I probably lean towards it about maybe 51% towards it. And I think that any of those three options make solid sense of the text. Any of those three options are at least theologically possible. Any of those three options, you can have a flow through the text that works.

None of them create heresy, so you can follow the basic big picture and you can wrestle with it and you can look at it. And maybe as you look at it more, maybe as people study more and you hear more options, maybe you come to a more solid conclusion at some point. But we get the big pictures and we know there are good options for explaining it in a way that fits the flow of the text.

How should we respond to suffering for doing good?

Jason Harper: This paragraph about Christ suffering once for sins, is said in the context of us responding to suffering, specifically suffering for righteous sake. Verse 13. Now who’s there to harm you if you are selfless for what is good, but even if you should suffer for righteousness sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them nor be troubled and then verse 17 for it’s better to suffer for doing good if that should be God’s will than for doing evil. How should we respond to suffering or what should we do if we’re suffering for doing good?

Jed Gillis: I think that the best way to view this, we can talk and have long paragraphs and explanations. But I want to just say a couple quick sentences. Number one avoid suffering where you can. And keep doing good.

That feels almost like cheating. Right. What should we do if we suffer for doing good? Avoid suffering when you can, but keep doing good.

Sometimes we really need to just come back to that principle and say, God did not promise a life full of comfort and ease. He did promise that following his path is the path to life. So if I have to suffer while doing good, I keep suffering and I do good, but if I can avoid it. I’m going to avoid it.

Scripture never tells you to go seek out suffering. It tells you to worship and love God. And it says that a world that hates God will also hate you. And you will find some suffering along the way.

Chapter four verse 19. Has I think a good summary statement of this as well. He says entrust your souls to a faithful creator while doing good. So trust God to care for your soul, even if you suffer physically right now, because he’s faithful. He’s never going back on his promises. He’s the creator so even if you suffer all the way to death, He can recreate you. And you continue to do good because that’s what he’s called you to do. That’s another quick phrase. I think it’s a summary really of most of first Peter entrust your souls to a faithful creator while doing good.

We could go backwards instead to chapter two, verse 11 and 12. We’re made to proclaim his glory. And in doing so we’re guarding our souls. So what do you do? You keep looking to the glory of God, say how good is my God, even when I suffer. How great is his wisdom? How great is his power? How great is his love? And you go back to all of these things and proclaim his excellency and in doing so you guard your soul during the suffering, because that’s the most important thing. It’s not do I experience discomfort now, it’s is my soul being hearted so that I love God like I should? And what’s most important: the immaterial part of me is being protected.

Or a Romans eight. What do we do if we suffer for doing good, we remember that the sufferings of this life are not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed. I’ll suffer now, but the joy I’ll have then will be so much better than the sufferings I have now.

Or second Corinthians four. What do we do if we suffer for doing good, we remember our sufferings are not pointless. He says this light momentary affliction in this life, whatever sufferings come, they are preparing for us an eternal weight of glory. It’s accomplishing a purpose. We suffer for all kinds of things. If we know they’re not pointless. And here it’s accomplishing a purpose. This isn’t a Q and a on second Corinthians four, but I think what he’s pointing to is a greater capacity for enjoying God. So sufferings now are stretching our souls to be able to love and enjoy more and more of the infinite God who loves us.

And so if suffering is doing that and it’s not pointless, I can say I’m suffering for doing good. But it’s accomplishing this purpose. It’s not worth comparing to that glory. I’m going to keep reclaiming God’s glory because it guards my soul. And I entrust that God is the one who will guard my soul, even through the suffering.

How should we prepare to defend our hope?

Jason Harper: As we live in a world that is often against us and we’re trying to do good and sometimes suffering for it. In verse 15. It says honor Christ the Lord is holy. Always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. How can we always be prepared to make a defense for our hope?

Jed Gillis: I love the question because it’s a specific, it’s a specific phrase. It’s Jesus said this, he wrote this in his word, Peter pinned these words. What does he mean?

I think that sometimes we think it means I’ve got to have all the answers, if somebody asks a question. And that’s not true. And you’ll notice right there. He says, make a defense to anyone, asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. Why do you have hope in Jesus? Why, when you’re suffering, do you not fall apart? Like some other people do. Well, tell them why. Tell them I do have hope, because Jesus did this for me. Because he saved me. Because he gave me his righteousness. Because he loved me enough that I know the sufferings now aren’t worth comparing to what’s coming.

All of it is to point to say, I do have hope. Here’s why. And when you live a life that doesn’t fall apart, complain, and murmur when difficulties and sufferings come, but that says, God is good and God is good all the time. When you live that life, people go, you’re crazy. So you make a defense.

You’re always prepared to make an, to give an answer. Why do I have this hope? And as you study and learn and grow, you’ll have more and more answers, more and more reasons to point to and say, see, this is why Christianity is reasonable. This is why this hope is reasonable. This is why it’s a better answer than other religious answers or than the secular humanism of our world today you’ll grow to have more of those things.

But at its lowest, most fundamental level, the level that a child can have, if somebody comes and says, why are you not miserable in life? Why do you have joy? You say, because Jesus saved me.

At its simplest level, that’s ready to make a defense. We can grow and learn in sophistication and in ways to answer it. But to say, I do have a hope it’s found in Jesus. And as you mature, more and more of how that hope transforms you and helps you to live a life that will suffer, sometimes, but can continue to honor Christ the Lord as holy, even when you suffer for doing good.

Closing

Jason Harper: Awesome. Thank you all for listening and tuning into this Q and A podcast. Thank you for all the questions. It’s been fun, and encouraging, and thought-provoking to pick apart first Peter from everyone’s different viewpoints and everyone has a slightly different question.

And. And thank you, Jed, for your preparation for these. Do you have any final thoughts you want to send us off with on first Peter chapter three?

Jed Gillis: I think the biggest thing is when there’s hard passages and questions to always draw back to what you do know. And what you’re confident in. And that’s where you can point back to chapter two. You can point forward to chapter four. You can point to verse 18 chapter three. Christ suffered once for sins. It’s all paid. It’s all done. In order to bring us to God.

And we can sometimes get distracted by all the other things, but to remember your savior, the second person of the Trinity, God came down to earth and loved you, died for you, paid all the debt that you owed, everything that was necessary so that you could enjoy and love and know him forever and never have to be separated from him. Don’t let the questions around gender roles or spirits in prison or any of those kinds of questions draw your attention away from that hope that is within.

Jason Harper: This is the Berean Bible Church sermon Q and A podcast. Thanks again for listening. If you want to get caught up, watch the sermons on YouTube. We have a playlist of all of our first Peter sermons. If you have any questions, email them to Jed at jedgillis@berean.me. We’re currently taking questions on chapter four.